On Vacation!
I’ll be on vacation until 8/4/03! I’m going to the Redneck Riviera (otherwise known as Pensacola Beach). I may check in and post a few items, but probably not. If anyone wants to tell Therapy Sessions why he’s just a greedy bastard out to keep poor folks down, please feel free. Otherwise the dialog will have to wait until I get back.
The On Vacation! by SharedThought, unless otherwise expressly stated, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.
July 26th, 2003 at 5:14 am
Have a good time!
July 26th, 2003 at 8:20 am
“Just a greedy bastard out to keep poor folks down?”
I merely demonstrated that your idea would not work, and would help no one.
I am more interested in ending poverty than you are. But I know that silly band aids won’t do the trick. People who don’t understand economics love band aids. They make them feel like they are “doing something.”
The fact that you have resorted insults means that you have run out of ideas, so I consider the debate over.
August 4th, 2003 at 9:30 am
John, I apologize. My statement was an attempt at a joke. I’m sorry that it came off as an insult. Now that I’m back from my vacation I’d be happy to resume the debate, if you’re still interested–Jay
August 5th, 2003 at 8:48 am
Apology accepted.
I didn’t work in the Peace Corps in Africa, or work in a soup kitchen in Baltimore, to keep the poor down.
But I do see government programs as providing little help in the war on poverty.I think they hurt because they give the perception that one’s actions have nothing to door with one’s condition: poverty is a result of bad luck or skin color. American poverty has gotten worse in the past fifty years. The poor have become infected with the idea that they are owed something from the rest of us, and that there is nothing they can contribute that is neccessary or needed. This is poverty of the spirit, a failure to recognize one’s inner resources.
My wife grew up poor, but her family had dignity. They kept their things tidy, and they worked hard for little reward. Their values were good, and my wife graduated at the top of her class, and she is a succesful DBA. Many Asian families live in crummy neighborhoods in the city, but their families persevere and their kids excel.
I can tell you this honestly. Imagine if my wife and I knew we were going to die, and we had to give our sons for adoption. Let’s say we had the benefit of being able to meet these two couples to choose from:
Couple #1: Already have one child, and can’t have more. They are poor. But they are proud of themselves and the work they do. They live in a rotten neighborhood, but their child is well behaved. The parents struggle to pay the bills to send him to a private school in their neighborhood, becuase their local public is putrid. They force their child to work hard in school and he is doing well.They have great dreams for him, and they work with him, to try to make sure that one day he will be successful.
Couple#2: Fantastically rich on inherited wealth but unable to have a second child. They assure me that my sons will be sent to the finest schools, and will always be safe. I note that their son is well fed, but bratty, and he is insolent towards his parents and not very polite to me. The couple themselves are quite boastful about their beautiful house and nice cars, and they promise that my sons will always have everything that they will will ever want or need.
My wife and I would choose couple #1. Every time.
I think that it is similar to a lesson that I have learned as parent: I would not be helping my children by giving them a geneous allowance and asking for nothing in return.
Sorry my reply is so long,
John Rogers
August 8th, 2003 at 5:30 pm
John, thanks for resuming our discussion. I admire your social involvement, which far surpasses my own. However, given your history I think your current positions are a bit surprising. First off, I don’t view the minimum wage as a government program akin to welfare or foodstamps. I agree with you that government spending has a nasty habit of breeding a sense of entitlement. This goes for welfare (individual and corporate) as well as military spending. I was in favor of the welfare reform that the Clinton administration pushed for, which requires more accountability and is designed to push people off the roles and into jobs. However, I’m still of a mind to give people at the bottom of the economic ladder the benefit of the doubt. Any extra help they get by increasing the minimum wage is fine by me. I’m not Marxist, but I like the aphorism “from each according to his ability to each according to his needs.” So, what threw you off the liberal wagon?
August 11th, 2003 at 8:30 am
Hi Jay:
The reply is kind of long, so I may post in on my website…
“So, what threw you off the liberal wagon?”
Oh Jeez. That’s a hard question. I am a liberal on many issues: I am pro-choice, against the silly drug war, against religious fundamentalism, pro-immigration, against racism and all kinds of bias. I am completely furious that Bush that has not cut governent spending, because I believe we face a demographic train wreck when social security and medicare hit the fan.
But if I could boil my “conversion” down to one word, that word would be AFRICA.
I saw a lot of programs going terribly wrong in Africa. The subsidized food that we send as “aid” is economically destroying Africa’s domestic farmers. They can’t compete with “free.” The free food invariablity ends up in the hands of corrupt regimes who pass it to their cronies as favors.
I came to conclusion that the best way to help Africa is to give them access to hard currency. They make excellent cloth and they grow fine fruits. Labor is very cheap and abundant. If only they could sell on the American market! But American labor unions (”Sweatshops!”) and corporate interests (”Competition!”) have blocked such things. Both Republicans and Democrats share the blame for this, but no one doubts that “free trade” is an issue that has been taken over by the Republicans.
In NAFTA, I found myself, for the first time, agreeing with the Republicans and disagreeing with the Democrats.I found myself agreeing with them again when the Democrats started muddying the debates about entitlement spending talking about fantasies like social security “lock boxes.”
I could be wooed by the Democrats if they acted serious about defending the country from terrorism, supporting democracy and opposing tyranny and reigning in government spending (somebody like Lieberman might do it). John F. Kennedy, many Democrats forget, was a cold warrior who liked tax cats and small government (and Jefferson had similar beliefs). I think JFK could be elected today, while Teddy would lose in a landslide (Democrats don’t seem to realize how far they’ve drifted).
Unfortunately, the Democrats want to increase spending on just about everything - especially on things that benefit the NEA or the trial lawyers- and they can’t seem to believe that an American military occupation force is better than a dictator who killed 300,000 of his own people.
Most damningly, their vision is not clear on foreign policy, and they will pay for this.
Tribal societies (as found in Africa and the Middle East) understand power. They smell weakness like a shark smells blood in the water. They were, until recently, under the impression that the US was cowering in the face of terrorism,in retreat, and they were interpreting that as a sign that their ascedency was Allah’s will.
America’s recent perfomrance in the Gulf is changing minds. Where there was once rage, now there is fear. And with fear comes introspection. With introspection comes change.
Hopefully. That’s the plan. It was a Republican plan, now it is America’s plan.
The Democrats have never had a plan. They were just hoping the winds would change and things would get better over there all by themselves.
SO I guess I’m a sort of Republican now. Oh well.